The Globe and Mail reports that in the interest of a fair and unbiased investigation, the RCMP has a trip to Poland in the works. Apparently, they wish to find out more about Robert Dziekanksi’s last days , his medical history and anything else that could give them some assistance in justifying their actions leading to his death.
That’s my take on it. They are looking for something, anything, that will allow investigators to come back and proclaim ” See?! This man was unstable, had this history….. and we were right in our actions!” It is a witch hunt, pure and simple.
Let us hope that the investigators co-operate with Polish officials who plan to come here and investigate, and give them details of the 4 RCMP officers involved. What were their service records like? How many times had they used the taser? What was the history of their weapons use? How long had they been RCMP? You get the idea.
I know of veteran RCMP officers who have never in all their years of service, had ever had to discharge a weapon – any weapon.
4 officers facing 1 man. One man!
I believe that this could have, should have, been handled differently. How could 4 strong men not have taken this guy down without that taser - and - without killing him?
As for the autopsy and other tests giving no indicator of how he died, I find that very hard to believe. Asphyxiation? No trauma to his esophagus or neck? No evidence of a compression of his airway leading to death? No, nothing it appears, the medical examiner is totally clueless. Robert Dziekanksi just died it appears, and all the medical science and investigation we have at our disposal today cant tell us why.
Forgive me if I seem disbelieving, but isnt the RCMP still investigating itself ? Remember the death of Ian Bush and how that investigation and autopsy were handled? Remember the details and results of the inquest?
http://www.rcmpwatch.com/mother-not-expecting-a-lot-from-report-on-shooting-death-of-son/
Although the new report released today finds no fault with the RCMP officer in question, the public remains unconvinced. Check out this link for today’s report.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2007/11/28/bc-ianbush.html
Enough said.
There will always be corruption and self -preservation among those in law enforcement- it’s been substantiated many times. The fault is not just within the RCMP , but within the entire Canadian justice system, the Attorney-General, the Solicitor General, and the lack of legislation governing crimes within these internal organizations. Police investigating police will never result in charges against officers who do wrong, and the sooner this aspect changes , the sooner public confidence will be restored.
I’m Laila Yuile, and this is how I see it.
Filed under: Blogroll, CKNW Talk SHow Idol, Credits, Laila Yuile | Tagged: , canadian justice system, CKNW, coronors inquest, Ian Bush, Laila Yuile, rcmp shooting, Rcmp wrongdoing, robert dziekanski, Talk Show Idol, taser deaths
=the medical examiner is totally clueless.
…Find out who’s in charge of that department and you’ll find an x-RCMP.
The Vancouver Sun reported that this poor man was an alcoholic and a smoker. Should the authorities not find out if this is true? Should they not find out if he has a history of mental illness or violence? Your answer is no because it would not fit into your conspiracy like theories. You probably think the cops, the coroner, the complaints commissioner, and everybody in authority is in a big conspiracy to always cover up everything. Cops have been charged and convicted with assault for using the taser zapper and other methods before. Read the newspapers. I am GetReal, I have confidence, and this is how I see it.
Hey, GetReal, that’s what makes the world go round……differing opinions! I tried emailing you but it seems you left a fake address…..
I do read profusely, however I read online reports from many sources, and have sources of my own from my days of an investigator.
I’m not a fan of conspiracy theories in general – I like to leave that to the kooks.
My opinion is, that there is a brotherhood within the RCMP and other law enforcement agencies, and that sometimes they change tactics when investigating their own.
Everyone makes mistakes- cops are certainly not exempt Did they mean to kill Robert Dziekanski? No, I don’t think so, or they would have shot him.
That being said, The events that occurred after the death cannot be ignored, or made less of. Regardless of whether he was an alcoholic, or mentally ill, or perhaps committed a crime somewhere in his past – it had nothng to do with the actions that happened that day, and the decisions that followed. While it is not as black and white as other cop crimes, its right up there with the video to show us what happened.
“The Vancouver Sun reported that this poor man was an alcoholic and a smoker. ”
That makes him more or less a person then?
GetReal
…maybe you should.
Hey lailayuile, the email is real, check your spelling. Hey tomax7, the fact that he is an alcoholic and a smoker may explain why he was so agitated. An alcoholic going through withdrawal?? Perhaps detrimental when added to the zapper? Nicotine withdrawal (I know that one), added to the alcohol and zapper?? He was without both his needs for several hours people. Your jump to ignore those facts that may have contributed to his death render your argument to solely blame the zapper inert. Your quantum leap to suggest I think him less of a person is repugnant. You want facts, or do you want to just “hang em high”? His past has everything to do with what happened. Millions of people go through that airport every year. What is different about this poor soul? Maybe we should find out, or would you have us just ignore certain pieces of information?
I think the taser- not the”zapper” as you call it- was the wrong tool to use in the situation. My opinion. If you research tasers, you will find they have never been tested on people taking meds or alcohol, or people with heart conditions, or anxiety.
That alone makes me question why they are being used without further research. Separate issue there.
I have no problem with the RCMP finding out more about Diezkanksi’s past, or any problems, but I do have a a problem with how they are failing to explain the actions of the RCMP, security staff, and airport staff – before ,during and after the incident. They failed to follow their own protocal for the tasering, as well as after the tasering. There was a defibrillator within 20 metres that was ignored, the call for medical assistance was not done until far too late, cpr was not done – when fire rescue arrived, they refused to take off the cuffs even though he was not breathing. What about the weight on his chest from the officers on his back as he lay in distress on the floor? What about the knee on his neck? Its also a known fact about tasering that resipration increases, and having a compressed chest could have prevented an adequate airflow to his lungs.
How does his past ,any possible addictions or issues, have anything to do with any of the above , Get Real, how do you explain that?
How do you know one of those cops doesnt have an anger management issue, or beats his wife when he goes home?
Maybe one of them hates immigrants of any kind- we dont know anything about their past, or their mental health, or any addictions they may have either, so why dont we get digging on that?
No details have been released about the officers involved at all. The investigation is one -sided in appearance to the public.
Do YOU want the facts GetReal, or do you just want to hang Dziekanski high? You sound a little defensive to me, makes me wonder why….
“Your jump to ignore those facts that may have contributed to his death render your argument to solely blame the zapper inert. ”
Hey Get, me thinks you are the one jumping. I never said the Tazer (zapper) killed him. If anything I think the constriction of having his hands behind his back, two or three big thugs on him also contributed to him not having his chest expand to breathe properly let alone one RCMP is shown to put full weight on his neck area.
So, back to your point.
“…the fact that he is an alcoholic and a smoker may explain why he was so agitated”
Yes, and that increases the more so of why the cops should have calmed the guy down first before zapping him.
As in DOH. He was behaving like someone who’s having withdrawls. Sheesh, I hope the cops don’t zap everyone who has the shakes so to speak.
Let alone 4 of them, plus YVR Security and Lord knows how many other bozo’s standing around watching.
This was a pure and straightforward goon attack.
Involuntary Manslaughter.
Ha lailayuile, I didn’t read your posting till after responding to Get’s.
Basically the same points, two or more agree upon, which to me are the real ones in this case, not a side note he was a ‘drunk smoker’ having withdraws that contributed to his death.
I’m sure many a drunk have been tasered.
…speaking of studies.
Wonder how many tazer studies have been done of people with a heightened pulse rate resulting from:
a. being without a smoke or a drink for more than 10 hours.
b. being without food maybe for the same amount of time.
OR:
c. nerves from being trapped in a room
c. corned by police who pull out what looks like a gun and yell at you in a different language.
OR:
e. having an anxiety attack from being ignored.
Now, the only thing I will say is we DO NOT know if he tried contacting someone to help in those 10 hours.
We do know he was agitated when the Limo driver let him into the secure area. Maybe to get his luggage?
Nevertheless, the guy doesn’t speak English, the RCMP are told this and yet don’t try to diffuse the situation, if anything they heightened/agitated it.
That surely can’t be normal procedure dealing with a distraught person/drunk/smoker.
Heaven help us if it is.
I miss the days when a couple of cops would clear a bar full of drunks.
I miss the days when a couple of cops would clear a bar full of drunks.
…that is with their bare hands or a billy club. This new PC Metro version of the RCMP worries me.
So now u are for the cops getting information on his background. OK good.
“How does his past ,any possible addictions or issues, have anything to do with any of the above , Get Real, how do you explain that?”
Well, I will tell you, I cannot explain it, just as you cannot, until the FACTS are in and tallied. FACTS such as the one respecting the Fire department have just come in. There are other FACTS coming in. You cannot just get a bit of information and start your engines each time.
Now address why you think nothing will happen if the cops are found to be in the wrong for using the zapper? They have been charged before in your province in fact, for assault by using the device.
You have to ascertain which combination of factors led to the death. If any of the combinations are found to have done it, then u can make policy, suspend use, ban them, train people, charge people or whatever. (However, if u allow their use to continue, I do not see a crystal ball for the cops on the medical conditions of persons they use it on.)
Tomax7 and your bar clearing. Spare me. Its 2007 and cops do not clear bars in Calgary Alberta or anywhere else, with their bare hands. Ask yourself why cops are given these things anyway. Is it to avoid shooting people? Clubbing people? Or perhaps to avoid using the dukes as you would prefer it. Remember the uproar in BC with Sgt. Pepper? Why do they carry that stuff too? Is it perhaps society does not like the hands on methods of the past? Perhaps due to society we have small, physically ineffectual people being hired? How big were your cops that cleared the bars with bare hands?
Perhaps our investigator could enlighten us from a broader social perspective as to these issues, as she is widely read.
Call me trusting but I actually believe that after the 8 investigations are completed, we will know what happened, and appropriate action will be taken.
Speaking of widely read, how were the English lessons he was taking coming along, or did you miss that one?
Facts people, facts, not speculation. Get the facts and then make the changes, charges, or whatever is necessary. All the bleating in the interim does nothing.
“So now u are for the cops getting information on his background. OK good. ”
Read what I wrote in that post, – I never said I wasnt for it- I said it was a witch -hunt, in my opinion, and it certainly won’t tell us if sitting on the guys back contributed to his demise. And for a guy who doesnt like “bleating”, you seem to be doing a lot of it within your comments. The cops have a union to protect them from public scrutiny into their backgrounds.
Let me tell you something, you know how investigation works? You take your known, hard facts. If the facts you have, dont give you answer, you look further, you “speculate” what could have happened, what possibilities might have exisited, and test those theories. Speculation leads you down roads that might prove to be wrong, but often prove to be right, and lead to other facts that may not have been known previously – speculation assists you to create and test theories. eventually, hopefully, the answer is found, and the “facts” revealed. Speculation is essential to investigation.
GetReal, you do your thing, and I’ll do mine. you and I will never agree on this one. Public outrage has a lot to do with the course of actions in situations like these. If the video didnt exist,and there were no eye-witness’s who spoke out, the sad fact is that it is unlikely any of this would be going on now.
I know,and have worked with, many within law enforcement, and the truth is that shit happens, and shit gets covered up. All the time. it’s pretty much par the course these days. No one admits liability, unless its so freaking apparent a crime was outright committed, and then the RCMP will distance themselves from the officer in question, and let him take the fall.
Video can take our privacy away, but it can enlighten us to events we may never have seen without it.
you keep going at all these other angles- english lessons?Small cops? WTF?
GetReal, you dont need to speak english to immigrate here, but you do need to learn it to become a citizen. Still doesnt explain why the airport had no freaking translators around, or why the cops and security didnt call for one.
You don’t know anymore facts than anyone else, but like myself, you HAVE decided where your sympathies remain.
You are right on one thing, we will never agree on some issues, but I will tell you that other than waiting for the facts, just because I do not agree with the totality of your rant does not mean I am on a particular side. I prefer to wait until all the investigations are done before I decide where I put my support.
I for one am glad that the court system does not “speculate”, but deals in facts.
If you are privy to such heinous occurrences with your work with “many law enforcement” lets hear it in a legal forum with your sworn testimony so justice can prevail. Whistleblowers are protected so speak out about the cover ups you have seen.
And perhaps you should read what I wrote, “cops with small hands” never appears in my post. Don’t you want all the angles to be covered? Or just the ones you want to speculate on?
You make the mistake of reading into information what you want, instead of analyzing what is actually there. I think your resorting to the vernacular also indicates what level your comprehension and abilities are at.
It must be quite disconcerting to be so cynical and jaded.
I am GetReal, I am waiting for the totality of the facts, this is the way I see it.
GetReal.
Yes, cops used to be, uh, bigger maybe in stature, or at least tougher – bare hands. But we can’t have that today with HIV.
Cops used to be respected too.
Someone one earns not dictate.
As for facts, how much more fact does one need with the video? I say that openly of course. Four big cops a handful of YVR Security against one pudgy guy doesn’t need a lot of depth in analysis.
Or narrow it down, one big cop on the guy’s neck. Another one on his back.
Where we will find the failure is the whole system. From Customs to Security to RCMP.
There is enough blame for criminal negligence, involuntary manslaughter, breech of security to go around for an innocent man’s death, no need to even do a taser investigation.
That my friend is the facts.
something one earns…
Just when I thought you got it you throw in a “don’t need to even do a taser investigation” and “how much more facts so we need than the video.” I cannot believe you are that intellectually bankrupt that you do not realize the video is the end of the travesty, not the beginning. So if all we use is the video, how do we find out what other authorities are culpable? How do we get the taser banned if it kills?
There surely is enough blame to go around, so why don’t we just await all the facts then we can properly assess those responsible?? Maybe suspend the taser as well?? Surely even you realize that the authorities are not going to change anything unless it is cut and dried and in glorious living color and backed with irrefutable facts??
I for one still respect the cops. I am sure we have some bad apples and those that need some “adjustments”, but I am not willing to throw everything out including our present system without due diligence.
According to the video there were 4 cops, but where were the “handful of YVR security you mention? I am sorry I seemed to have missed the “handful” of security people on the tape.
I agree we will find “the failure from Customs to Security to the RCMP.” What say we find out all the nitty gritty details and then apportion blame?
That my friend is common sense.
Take a jaunt down to Cowboys and see how they handle problem people, or do you not frequent your local establishments?
Whatever made you so cynical that you have no trust in anything?
“handful of YVR security you mention?”
Maybe watch the video, on the left side you’ll see them.
You know those guys with the bright yellow jackets with the word SECURITY on their backs…
I’m not saying don’t investigate tasers, but that is a smoke screen to the cover up going on.
The only time we’ll get all the facts is in heaven. Till then, the RCMP have said nothing is wrong, Canada Customs said nothing is wrong, and YVR is saying nothing is wrong.
In the word ‘wrong’ , the kind that admitts fault, guilt and error.
You know, the wrong legal lawyer type thing, not this whitewash of more camera’s.
I stand corrected, that is officially a “handful”.
So clarify another point for me. “Cops used to be bigger”, “Four big cops a handful of…..”
So define big for me as in how big were they compared to how big they are now. Are you in favor of height and weight restrictions for police officers?
Read this commentary you may find it enlightening:
http://www.rcmpwatch.com/shame-on-me-for-jumping-to-conclusions/#comment-1990
You can paste it into your browser.
Let me know if you find anything interesting.
By the way, Jim says Hey.
It saddens me to read all of this. Laila, I appreciate your frustration at not having all the information at this point (as was the case with the Ian Bush investigation) but surely you must see that these investigations take time and that in the end, the details do come out.
The Ian Bush case was a feeding frenzy for viscious media attacks on the RCMP and Cst. Keoster but in the end the Coroner and the Coroner’s Jury found that he acted in self-defence.
Sadly, that will never give any comfort to Ian’s parents who will live without him forever.
The same is true in this situation. Please, be patient, everyone. With 7 or 8 investigations under way, the truth will come out. These things take time and I for one would rather that the whole thing not be rushed because the media has resorted to name-calling.
‘cops used to be bigger’.
That’s a figure of speech per se. No, I guess I should have said ‘bigger than life’.
But nevertheless, these cops were physically bigger than Mr. Dz, plus the YVR Security staff, I think about 3 of them in the video, makes 7 people to take down a middle aged pudgy guy.
I hate to see what YVR’s finest would do if there was an actual riot.
Jim? Hey back at’chya.
Re: Robert Dziekanksi
Dziekanksi was throwing chairs and computers at the window. Would you do that if you got lost at the Warsaw airport? No, of course not. These were not the actions of a “frustrated tourist”. Clearly, he was suffering from some sort of physical / mental episode. So, prudence demands that the man be regarded as unpredictable and inherently dangerous.
The police approach. Dziekanksi has barricaded himself somewhat behind some chairs. But, he initially puts up his hands like he will surrender; maybe this will turn out okay. But then he walks away and goes to the counter, where he picks up a stapler. Would you do that if confronted by four Polish police officers? Of course not.
So now we have a man, who is 6′9″ (that’s HUGE), acting in a violent manner (smashing things IS violent behavior) and who appears to be mentally unstable for unknown reasons. And now he’s armed with a stapler (don’t think that’s dangerous; let me throw a stapler at your head and see if you want to get hit with it).
Clearly this guy must be dealt with and must be restrained. This is not the time to look for a translator and figure out why he’s acting this way; those questions can be answered when the man is in custody and no longer poses a threat.
Have you ever gotten into a fight with someone who is 6′9″? Pudgy, middle aged, or not, that is someone who is physically capable.
But, there were 4 police officers, so maybe a police officer should have tackled him and the others piled on? That sounds good, but whoever tackles him may find their skull caved in with a stapler. And if not, the fight is still on and now Dziekanksi has access to four guns. If the police don’t take immediate action, Dziekanksi may throw the stapler
Believe it or not, there are no secret police karate moves. If not for the Taser they would have had to duke it out with Dziekanski. That would result in injuries to him and the police.
What about pepper spray? It’s not fast enough, it’s not 100% effective, and indoors it may have incapacitated the police officers as well.
The police did exactly the correct thing; they used the taser on an armed (blunt force weapon) man.
Even good old Mr. Pritchard, immediately after the incident, supported the police action. It wasn’t until much later, after he looked at the video, that he changed his mind. That tells me that a reasonable person, in the situation at the time, would have done the same thing as the police.
The first question should be: was the use of the Taser proper? Yes, it was.
Second question: did the Taser kill Dziekanksi? Most likely not. Google “pepper spray death” and you’ll see that in the 1990’s, before Tasers, people were “dying” from pepper spray. In the 1980’s, before pepper spray, people were “dying” from police “choke holds” and positional asphyxia.
The common factor in all of these deaths are that people act in violent and unpredictable ways, they get arrested and some use of force is required, and then they suddenly die. What’s REALLY killing these people? That is the important question? Is there a way to prevent it? Also important.
But, “Taser death” headlines sell newspapers, so the media is unlikely to stop their sensationalization of this issue for some time.
Do you know why we can be sure that RCMP internal investigations are above board?
I’ll tell you why.
There are several thousand RCMP officers in the province of B.C. They all don’t know each other, and they certainly all aren’t friends. To believe that ALL internal investigations are big snow jobs would assert that a large portion of police are corrupt. You would also have to believe that the police cover ups are SO GOOD, that independent reviewing bodies (coroner’s inquests, Crown Counsel special prosecutors, outside police agency reviews, as in the Ian Bush case) are unable to find any holes in the cover up at all. There are just too many people involved for that to be reasonable.
Furthermore, do you know what would happen to an RCMP officer who was in charge of a major internal investigation (such as the Bush case) who successfully got charges against the police officer involved? The lay person might think “oh, the investigator would be forever blackballed and ostracized from the boys club”. Not so, stop watching so many cop movies. I can guarantee that the investigator would be immediately promoted. Some police officers have made their careers off of busting crooked cops.
Also, if this was just a big cover up, then dozens of police officers would know about it and we would have to believe that none of them would go to the media, get lucrative book deals, and become heros. Someone would spill the beans.
Finally, there is only one thing that the police hate more than a criminal; and that’s a criminal who wears a badge. They tarnish the whole outfit and everyone will bend over backwards to get rid of them.
So, if you truly believe that police internal investigations are SO corrupt that the truth will never come out, then you are obligated to call for the dismissal of all police officers in the province, because for that to be the case, the corruption must go so deep that we can’t trust anyone.
Do you really think that?
Simon,
I raise my hat to you. I could not have said it better myself.
Simon…6′9″?
ummm, no, maybe 5′9″
…oh wait, bet yer a metric kid.
1.8m
“Finally, there is only one thing that the police hate more than a criminal; and that’s a criminal who wears a badge. They tarnish the whole outfit and everyone will bend over backwards to get rid of them.”
…obviously this mentality doesn’t permidate the upper echelons in Ottawa.
Musical Rides, Pension Funds, some Italian sounding name of top chief, etc.
tomax7,
Peter Cisowski, Dziekanski’s step father, describes him as a “gentle giant” standing at 6′9″ (six foot nine)
Check it out if you don’t believe me:
http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=0a2a774b-c690-4488-be5b-910a023c1d7f
tomax,
After reading your posts, I conclude that you are somewhat of an ignoramus who merely spouts off whatever headline you have read in whatever it is that you read.
I assure you that you are quite ill informed.
Musical rides, pension funds, and Zaccardelli…what of them? What do you know of these matters that supports your seemingly bald assertions that the RCMP upper management are criminals?
Simon,
Speaking of ignoramus…
Not sure what your point is about him being 6′9″ which he wasn’t.
What of the Musical rides (AdScam), Pension Funds money missing, Zaccardelli…
Oh No, they are not criminals, but of course not.
Are you an RCMP troll?
“Musical rides, pension funds, and Zaccardelli…what of them?”
You know, you’re right.
Nothing to see here, move on.
FIDO.
tomax,
If you think there is no difference in trying to subdue a 5′9″ man, versus a 6′9″ man, well, I just don’t know what to say to that. It’s a huge difference, and I’m not sure why you dispute his height when it was given from his family.
Second, do you know any of the details of the issues you talk about, or do you just say “Pension Scam!” and expect everyone to just nod in agreement?
Finally, time to put your money where your mouth is…what is the problem with the RCMP and what do you suggest should be done about it? Why do you hate the police so much?
Gentlemen,
In the interest of settling the question of his height, I contacted Jennifer Saltman, the author of the above linked Province article.
She tells me ” I was given this information by his stepfather, who presumably got it from his mother”
It appears she did not and has not confirmed this from a separate source, and I cannot locate any other reports online that refer to his height.
All accounts say he was a larger man, which may refer to either height , weight , or both- he does appear to be over weight and broad-shouldered.
If I am able to get confirmation on his height, I will post it. After viewing the video yet again, it does seem unlikely that he was 6′9″, when seen in relation to the security, RCMP, and the woman trying to assist him, unless they were all very tall , as well!
Wow, a journalist who does not confirm information before writing it. I for one am shocked. And heavens above, crooked people in Ottawa? That’s it, I am totally disillusioned. Next thing you know somebody will tell us that tomax7 is a nerd.
Its all really too much…
Simon: and I’m not sure why you dispute his height when it was given from his family.
…I’m starting to think we’re not talking about the the same guy here Simon.
Have you seen the video? Mr. Dz is not 6′9″. Also could be the translation? The stepfather may not have said it wrong.
In other words Simon, people make mistakes you know in measurements.
If you’re hinging your argument for the RCMP using Tasers and resting on his neck because he’s 6′9″ then you’re sadly paddling up the wrong river.
Get….”GEEK” not nerd.
Sheesh.
laila- After viewing the video yet again, it does seem unlikely that he was 6′9″
Silly question. Being in the journalistic area, you didn’t note this in the first viewing?
“It does seem”? I know you’re being polite, but I expected more from you, as in “It is CLEAR that he was not a tall man”…
I wouldn’t be surprised he was even smaller. Say more 5′6-9″.
———————
Simon, no I don’t hate cops. I hate the system that is turning out effeminate politically correct ones and is spoiling/corrupting those who wanted to be true cops.
FIDO.
I will not say it is “clear” he is not a tall man, as perspective can sometimes be very deceptive when viewing second hand material. In my opinion, it seems his height is not the reported 6′9″, and if it were the case , I am pretty sure that the RCMP would have jumped all over that as their first line of defence.
Regardless, I repeat, height has nothing to do with the actions of the officers, once Robert was on the floor.
Regardless, I repeat, height has nothing to do with the actions of the officers, once Robert was on the floor
…right you are.
Laila,
I’m confused a bit; what do you think the police did wrong in this case?
I just re-watched the video and I still think the use of force appears appropriate, as per my previous posts. I’d be interested to hear what you think they should have done. What would you have done if you were one of the police officers?
In your article, you take exception to the police going to Poland to research Robert’s past as some sort of attempt to justify the officer’s actions. But, what if the police didn’t make those inquiries? Would that be a complete investigation? Is it not important to discover all of the facts related to the case?
How can a complete investigation be done without doing background checks on Dziekanski?
The question at the inquest will not be “did the YVR officers do the right thing in consideration of ALL THE FACTS”, but rather “did the YVR officers do the right thing in consideration of what they knew AT THE TIME.”
What information did the witnesses relay to the police dispatcher? What information did the dispatcher relay to the police officers? What did the police officers see when they got to the scene? Those are important in determining what the officers knew at the time of the incident and whether or not their actions were justified.
Whatever information is discovered in Poland cannot retroactively justify the officers’ actions.
You also discuss the medical exam failing to determine a cause of death. Do you think that the medical examiner is corrupt and working for the police? Or is it possible that the cause of death is something that is we can not detect with our current medical techniques?
“Asphyxiation? No trauma to his esophagus or neck? No evidence of a compression of his airway leading to death?”
Maybe those weren’t found because they didn’t cause his death. Isn’t that more plausible than a huge cover up involving the dozens of police officers, the coroner and the medical examiner, and the incompetence of the public complaint’s commission, the Crown Counsel, the corner’s inquest, and a separate police agency reviewing the file who ALL fail to notice these cover ups time and time again?
Watch the start of the video…look at how hard he’s breathing and how sweaty he is. Why is he like that? Why is he acting so crazy?
Perhaps whatever medical issue caused his behavior and his physical symptoms also caused his death? Do we have a perfect understanding of medicine? Is it possible there may be some medical mysteries still out there? Are you a pathologist? What is your medical training? Why would you automatically conclude that this is a cover up instead of a medical issue that we don’t understand?
I’ll tell you right now, that “knee on the neck” is nothing. From years of Judo, I can tell you that I could kneel on someone’s neck all day like that and they’d be fine. Do you know how hard it is to suffocate someone? It doesn’t “just happen by accident” or there would be way more deaths.
Could some combination of Dziekanksi’s medical issues (which he clearly had, given his behaviour and symptoms) and the restraint have caused his death in a way that was not detectable by autopsy? Hmmm, that’s a possibly worth exploring. But is that the fault of the police who used minimal force to restrain the guy?
(Okay, I can hear it now “minimal force…the guy died!”. There is a difference in the amount of force used and the result of the force used. They used minimal force…the force and / or some other factors resulted in the death.)
Herein lies the tragedy and the difficulty in accepting what happened….the incident produced a profound result through no intention of those involved and no fault of Dziekanksi.
In your most recent post you indicate that something inappropriate happened when Dziekanksi was on the floor, I assume after he was handcuffed. I further assume you mean the failure of the police to do CPR.
Is it possible the police thought that Dziekanksi was still breathing? Have you ever dealt with anyone who is unconscious? How hard it is to tell if someone is shallow breathing or not breathing? I don’t know; I’ve never been there, and you probably haven’t been either.
Are the police lying in saying that he was still breathing when they knew he wasn’t and just didn’t want to bother doing CPR? Is it outside of the realm of possibilities to think that the ambulance attendants and firefighters, who I assume have greater medical training and better equipment, made a more accurate diagnosis of Dziekanksi? Or that Dziekanksi was breathing until shortly before the ambulance attendants got there and his change of status was not detected by police? How hard is it to detect when someone goes from unconscious and shallow breathing to not breathing? (I don’t know).
But is it reasonable to believe that the police officer checked for a pulse (which you can see him do on the video), didn’t feel one, but said there was one anyway?
But here are some important questions:
What is the level of medical training of a police officer? Are they trained beyond a basic level of first aid? Does management ensure they are up to date on their first aid training?
Was that first aid training sufficient to deal with this situation?
If we think police should have more first aid training, what cost is associated with that?
Finally, you made mention of “the first line of defence for the RCMP”.
I think that’s the whole problem here. The RCMP released some basic statements about what happened. That’s all they’ll say. They won’t release radio tapes, statements from the officers, training records of the officers, or anything else. Why? Are they hiding something?
No, the RCMP is precluded from doing so because there are ongoing investigations and inquiries. That evidence will be weighed by a Coroner’s jury, an independent police department review, maybe Crown Counsel, and the Public Complaints Commission. If the RCMP aired all their information right away, it would be very unprofessional and would twart the public inquest / inquiry process.
Sadly, the media and other parties (Civil Liberties, Amnesty International) are not so limited and the police become a punching bag. They make statements and claims when they clearly do not have all the facts (how could they have all the facts when they aren’t privy to most of the investigation??).
How responsible is it to make claims (eg Ban Tasers! Charge the police with murder!) without all the evidence?
We should neither run to condemn, nor defend, the police officers involved until we know everything. Clearly, I give the benefit of the doubt to the police, and assume that they are honest, conscientious, and acted to the best of their abilities and knowledge.
If we don’t even know how big this guy was (I agree from the video 6′9″ may be excessive), then what else do we, as people not involved in the investigation, NOT know?
We need to allow the investigation to continue and trust the checks and balances that are in place to do their job.
And that’s the rub, I suppose. The media has convinced everyone of that we can’t trust those checks and balances. Maybe it’s true; maybe everyone is totally corrupt.
Does the public really want a more transparent investigation process, or just one that satisfies the desire for immediate information that we have all gotten so used to?
Let’s also ask this: has the media been reporting these stories fairly? The media survives by selling advertising space which requires them to maximize their viewing / reading audience? Are they acting totally above board in pursuing their interests? Or, are they sensationalizing stories to shock the public because shock sells better?
Holy shit, I didn’t realize how long that was.
All this discussion brings me back to my original point which is why don’t we wait until all the facts are revealed by all those involved and all those investigations before we hold court? I agree with Simon on those points at least. I beleive they have been made time and again here Ranting against the police only denotes bias.
Going back to the original “witch hunt” assertion by Laila, (Apparently, they wish to find out more about Robert Dziekanksi’s last days, his medical history and anything else that could give them some assistance in justifying their actions leading to his death) have you changed your mind on whether there should be a discovery of information in Poland, and perhaps any stops in between?
…let’s go back to the basics. No judging, but simple observation.
1. a man wanders a highly secure international airport for about 10 hours unmolested.
2. a man dies within 20 seconds of meeting RCMP.
3. a man is hand cuffed behind his back while unconscious/shallow breathing.
The report is now saying he pulled a black stapler out of his pocket, which the RCMP believed to be a knife.
On those grounds, yes taser. But 3-4 times?
Oh, the judo comment…
http://www.ijf.org/corner/qCornerView.asp?Page=1&MenuCode=JT&Idx=11
tomax,
You can criticize what other people say, make quick snide and sarcastic comments, but you can not advance an opinion of what should happen.
You are ignorant.
http://www.nletc.com/courses.php?course_id=1
Agencies and trainers should avoid the use of single-level, or time limit approved neck restraint methods since their use has resulted in all the claims of excessive force, death, and resultant litigation involving neck restraint use.
Our statistics show that 50% of all subjects will cease resistance at Level One with low-level compression on the sides of the neck; 25% will comply at Level Two with medium compression on the neck; and the other 25% will comply at Level Three or be rendered unconscious in 4 to 7 seconds. Result: No death, injury or litigation for excessive use of force for 34 years against agencies using the certified Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint (LVNR�) System!
Thank you Simon for that vote of confidence.
Now, if you are asking what SHOULD have been done rather than what HAD happened, then please by all means make sure that is the point of the discussion.
See the topics are about the RCMP and their foul up of what seemed a simple procedure.
Now if you want my humble ignorant assessment, I will gladly say a simple gesture, or de-escalation of the situation was warranted.
Such as ‘Sit Down’ with a hand gesture, or finger to mouth for a ’shhhhh’ type thing or a ‘no-no’ sideways of the head and hands.
You know like the woman did earlier, unarmed and untrained on how to handle someone who is clearly having an anxiety attack.
Thanks for the link regarding the neck restraint.
That page is a sales page for a type of police training designed to replace carotid control holds (the “choke holds” that compress the carotid arteries rendering the subject unconscious in a few seconds). I’m not sure what they are actually selling (a product? a technique? it’s not really clear to me).
However, you did not see a carotid control technique used on Dziekanksi…the was only pinned to the ground with a knee. Not the same thing at all as a carotid compression but I can see how someone may confuse the two. Incidentally, the Judo link you sent is also about carotid control techniques as well as actual choke holds which compress the windpipe. Again, not the same as the Dziekanksi situation.
If you wish to learn more about carotid control techniques, you should read the following report:
http://www.cprc.org/tr/tr-2007-03E.pdf
Thank you for the actual paragraph of writing an a firm answer on what you think would have been appropriate.
May I ask some questions about your proposed course of action:
1. Was Dziekanksi acting rationally? Is it likely that he would respond rationally to attempts at de-escalation? Did he respond to the woman’s attempts (who did an excellent job)? Is it likely he would have responded differently to the police?
2. I think it is clear that when the police arrived Dziekanksi knew they were there to talk to him as they stood around him. He walked away after 5 to 10 seconds and appears to grab a stapler. Would you consider this to be an escalation of the situation?
3. Since Dziekanksi has the stapler in hand, how long would you continue to attempt to try to talk him down? Would you be concerned he may throw the stapler? At what point do you take action?
Again, thank you for the direct answers, much appreciated.
Umm, do you want me to answer your questions as per your number count or by a smattering of thoughts lumped into one?
1. No. Yes. Yes. No.
2. No.
3. As necessary. Yes. Body language.
Now, let’s try to be rational about it.
1a. No he wasn’t acting rationally, he was anxious.
1b. He responded to the next question about being told to put things down or the NO word.
1c. Ibid.
1d. He was actually happy to see the police, in other words he could distinguish between the YVR wanna-be’s and the real cops. Maybe the guns gave them away?
2. You are starting a dialogue with a presupposition, how am I suppose to give my answer? But no, grabbing a stapler could mean he was arming himself, again the report now says he pulled a stapler out of his jacket. Maybe to return it, or defend himself? The only person who could answer that unfortunately isn’t available.
3. Depends on what he was doing with the stapler. In the video his arms were by his side, so he was not raising it in a threating manner, unless of course they play underhand softball in Poland. When he was surrounded/cornered then a natural reflex may have been to go into a defensive stance.
But questions I have to ask you:
1. Was this handled properly by the YVR Security staff?
2. Was this handled properly by the RCMP?
3. Could this all have been avoided before 1am?
4. Could this all have been avoided if only 1 cop showed up?
W
No problem.
1/3 – I think there were some failings on the part of YVR. How does some dude wander around what I understand to be a limited area in the airport for 10 hours and not be noticed? I assumed there were people manning video surveillance systems as well as security on the ground that would have picked up on this. I guess not. And his mother was told that he didn’t get on his flight? Clearly there are some problems there and I think they have them resolved.
4 – Would 1 police officer have been less likely to engage physically; probably. But, if physical intervention was required, the risk to that one officer would be huge. Sending one guy to the call on his own is not the safe thing to do, as evidenced by the police officer deaths up north.
2 – What course of action to take in a dynamic situation is entirely subjective based on your perspective and what information you have available.
You have made your mind up that the police acted improperly based on viewing the video and obtaining other outside information and having time to think about all of it. You may be totally right. Based on all the information, the police maybe should have taken a different strategy. (I don’t know because I don’t have all the information)
But, the police didn’t have all the information. They didn’t get to watch several minutes of video before dealing with the guy. They didn’t know he had been wandering around the airport for 10 hours and wasn’t all hyped up on drugs. All they knew was what their dispatcher told them.
They had limited information and had to react quickly to an evolving situation. We cannot expect perfection, but we can demand that their actions be reasonable.
That is, they might not have done what you would have done, but that doesn’t make them wrong. However, what they did has to have been reasonable based on the information they were presented with. There is no black and white, no absolute right or wrong. That is hard for some people to accept, I suppose.
I think that when it all shakes out, it will be found that the officers’ actions were reasonable in the circumstances. You will likely never be satisfied. And people with an axe to grind with “the establishment” will scream and shout about incompetence, white washes and cover ups. And the media will sensationalize it and the conspiracy theorists will feel validated.
But at the end of the day, nothing significant will come of this situation, just like the Bush case, because thankfully our government is not prone to knee jerk reactions. Nothing is perfect but we have a good police force, and good checks and balances in place, and any changes to those systems will cost huge amounts of money that no one really wants to pay for and that aren’t required anyway.
Simon. You are correct that the police probably didn’t have a lot to go on, if in fact maybe they were even told there was a drug crazed man tearing up the place posing a threat to innocent bystanders.
While your nobility of the police is recognized, the fact still remains the system failed us.
Not conspiracy, not knee jerking, not disestablishmentalism or anything like that, but a plain cold fact – an innocent man died because the system failed us.
Why did it fail us? Because of laziness that permeates government jobs, west coast mentality and ‘not my job’ stuff so prevalent when arriving to Vancouver.
One reason I left there and haven’t moved back was because of that unionist mentality.
What’s on strike this week?
No, from the time Mr. Dz checked in, the system failed us. From the lazy Custom’s people who didn’t check when his Mother asked, to YVR Security who surely must have noticed this man wandering their halls for x number of hours, to the RCMP who was too rushed to clear the area for a landing jet load of passengers.
The system failed us because it did not know how to handle one single middle aged overweight guy with an anxiety issue.
Imagine if there was actually a death threatening situation.
How is Dziekanski an innocent person? It was his actions that caused all of this.
I’m pretty sure you could drop me off at the Warsaw airport and I could find my way to the street without smashing things and getting arrested, even without the help of any of the airport staff or anyone who spoke English.
Dziekanski was acting like a lunatic and needed to be arrested. The airport staff didn’t help him, boo hoo, he’s an adult he can figure things out himself. How is it our responsibility to hold everyone’s hand and make sure they don’t get lost?
Granted, it would have been nice for someone to help the guy, and maybe even it was the airport staff’s job to see the guy walking around and help him out, but Dziekanski is responsible for his own behavior, no one made him try to smash a window.
I am pretty sure we will find out what makes this one visit by one person so separate and apart from the MILLIONS of passengers that come through yvr. Personally when I go through yvr the odd time on business, I would like a latte and a massage, but I don’t see that happening anytime soon.
There does come a point where you have to examine where society’s role ends and ones personal responsibility begins. I see that over the years we have moved that pivot point ever so closely to negating ones own culpability. Did the collective WE fail this individual? Perhaps we did. But on the basis of percentages? Will we ever be able to negate any negative aspects of life? I don’t think so.
I am still of the mind to await the totality of the facts. I think I already said that. But there it is again.
…maybe if i hide in here the bopsie twins won’t find my posting.
Dziekanski was murdered!
“Remember the death of Ian Bush and how that investigation and autopsy were handled”?
Is it true that Constable Koester tried to rape (pretty boy) Ian Bush?
When Ian fought back Koester shot him in the head?
Hard day at the office, Koester?
Laila, get this guy off the board.
I think it was just a freak accident, there was two seccurety guards on the job, i think they could of handled it, instead they called the rcmp in,its a air port the cops took extra percaution,and what if the man blew up the lobby, people would still be blaiming the rcmp for not taking percautions.
A valid point. It has become a national sport to minutely scrutinize and vilify authorities on perceived or real mistakes, action or inaction, supposition and ill informed opinion.
>>The Globe and Mail reports that in the interest of a fair and unbiased investigation, the RCMP has a trip to Poland in the works. Apparently, they wish to find out more about Robert Dziekanksi’s last days , his medical history and anything else that could give them some assistance in justifying their actions leading to his death.
the RCMP should still first examine their own crap at home..